Great Sunday reading while watching a wealthy Indianapolis church move in across the street and excuse the poor neighbors after one community service last summer. I dread Sundays - the neighbors don't come out of their apartment building anymore.
Really enjoyed your essay, David. I love the vivid and voluminous detail.
I see many parallels in this essay with growing up in a working class family on Long Island in the 60s-70s. It was not remotely diverse where I grew up, except that many people were immigrants from Europe. (My mom came from Germany.) We had a single black teacher, Mr. Countryman, one or two black students, and a smattering of Puerto Ricans in my high school. That has changed dramatically and for the better on Long Island, though problems remain of course.
Our lives focused on labor, on earning, on making a living, on being very practical--a theme that I return to often in my fiction. My story "The Stainless Steel Hubcap Principle" is about this, and will appear this summer in a Substack short fiction anthology called "Masculine."
Most of the choices presented to me were be a laborer, learn a trade, join the police department, or get a job with the town. (I did labor and trade until I went to college in my late 20s.) Need to make more money? Get a side job. Or two! My people dreamed of getting a boat to go fishing and clamming (I got my first at 14). Your first vehicle was a van where you drank and had sex.
But what I identify with more in your essay is being the book-reading, story-writing geek, on the sensitive side, not dressed cool, uncool haircut, not good at sports--not a boy's boy at all. This led to severe bullying, which in the 70s was of the spit/punch-in-the-face variety that teachers dismissed or ignored as just boys workin' things out. I literally had to pull a knife once. Other times I had to (when I finally snapped in to rage) smash teeth and braces out of mouths or run a bully's head into a brick wall. You had no choice. If you didn't fight back, they would crush you.
The thing I laugh about the most is being called a "faggot" and "queer" for (wait for it) reading books. So THAT'S what causes it! I thought it was domineering mothers.
I think it's just that old idea that being "sensitive" as a boy is weakness. And gay men were all, of course, sensitive and "effeminate," so are therefore weak. Fucking nuts! Yes, youngun's, it was really that bad in my day. The ignorance was miles deep.
Okay, that's enough for now. Glad we crossed paths. I look forward to reading more of your stuff. And I DO understand your Indiana experience to some extent based on my years in the Midwest. There are some extreme class divisions and religious identities that make the idea of one friendly, down-home, corn-consuming Midwest ridiculous.
The best thing that you had going for you is that you were able to live in other states and places rather than Indiana. I live currently in Southern Indiana and once my parents pass on its probably moving to somewhere else which is my real goal. The so called Christianitiy that is practiced here is basically useless unless you want to talk about the same things over and over and then most of the people don't act Christlike as they would tell you. That said I've been comfortable being around the so called "saved" because hypocrisy and double standards is rife in their religion.
I live in the Southern part of the state near Louisville, KY but I have lived in Northern Indiana near Chicago then in Central Indiana near Indianapolis, spent years in Bloomington at school and around the campus of Indiana University, spent a few years in New Albany, had family in Shelbyville, Indianapolis and Greenfield. I'm definitely ready for a change. If things were a bit different or if I ever hit the lottery its probably going to be to the West Coast. The South doesn't appeal to me one bit with the deep fried Southern Baptist mentality that exists down there. The East Coast is ok but the summers largely suck and are humid and nasty and then the winter will cut you to the bone with snowstorms and noreasters. The Midwest weather largely sucks here and the people here are mediocre. I can say that living in both Indiana and Kentucky and spending a lot of time in Ohio and Illinois as well. I spent 5 years in Kentucky and it was a total hell hole of a state including Louisville supposedly being the largest city in Kentucky but might as well had been Knoxville or some dumpy place like Chattanooga.
Indiana is at the very best mediocre all the way around. The education system is mediocre finishing in the bottom 20 states. The economy is mediocre being the 38th richest state in the country. The only bright spot is the universities here with Indiana University, Purdue University, Notre Dame, IUPUI, Rose Hulman and a few other smaller schools
Which means you can get an education, find a job elsewhere and get the hell out. At this point I am too invested in this state and county where I currently live. Sometimes I wish to travel the world and leave the United States. Even if I can't I would hope to go to a state such as California, Oregon or Washington. Nevada, Utah and Arizona don't really appeal to me and nor do the Rocky Mountain states although Colorado was relatively nice though expensive. That said it would still be better than the Midwest and Indiana.
The people in Indiana are like I SAID extremely mediocre. A few years ago I was looking to start a local hifi audio group and people get together and do music or play music or even share ideas and tips. The only response was someone wanting to put together something for money. No thanks because I can already design my own system just interested in sharing tips, ideas and opinions and stuff like that. The same people sit all day on their phones bitching about something on Facebook or some other social media. That seems to be the current state of affairs in this hideous state. People here are massively boring and have no real interests in the most part outside of work or their churchianity or some other social club. No interests in music, electronics, history, culture or most anything else. I know there are places like Bloomington or Indy that have people who are more diverse and not watching the same streaming crap day in and day out but they are 1 to 2 hours away and that is a one way trip so its 2 hours to 2 1/2 to Bloomington to there and back and Indianapolis is about 4 hours to Indianapolis and back at 100 miles away. Louisville is about 1 hour away here and well ITS KENTUCKY and frankly Kentucky sucks even more than Indiana.
The general culture here promotes laziness, being a nasty pig, not cleaning up after yourself, constant religious browbeating, mass hypocrisy, focus on politics constantly being a red state, sports being IU and the Colts. Interestingly down here the Pacers don't really even register in Southern Indiana once you get past Columbus and Bloomington. Even though in 2025 the idiots were talking about Southern Indiana being Pacers country in the NBA. Even though I have lived here for most of my life minus 10 years and I've rarely seen a Pacers shirt, jersey or jacket here in Southern Indiana. This is combination IU country and Kentucky basketball country due to the Kentuckians that have moved to Indiana to get the hell out of Kentucky.
The culture here in many ways is Southern and the worst of Southern humanity with a slight Midwestern twist. I was born here many decades ago in the 1970s but I never have felt like I really belonged here except for being dumped here after birth as my family was originally from Indiana but at least from the Central Part near Indy. That said I don't share a lot of views, opinions or ideas with the locals who have problems thinking outside of the box of what they have always known. Its quite pathetic that their worldview is so limited with the poor education that they receive from the public school system in this state.
Good for you that you were able to escape and thrive because living here is merely existing.
I think the culture is so terrible because the majority of people that live here havent ever expwrienced anything other than this. That beimg said, the majoritu of those people dont like or welcome change, i mean, loom how long it took for them to accept that there are people that arent the same color as them. Its absolutely absurd. Generally speaking though, i think its definitly a midwest thing, not just indiana. To amswer your question on where would i like to live, i havent quite narrowed it down yet and Im sure thats one of the main reasons im still here, that and my familyis here so it would just be a nightmare traveling back and forth now thay my parents are getting older. However, i will not stay here forever, if i have to sell everything i own and live in my car for a while then so be it. I can tell you that wherever i go, its going to
be somewhere that doesnt really have a winter. I absolutely hate the cold. That movie theatre, is it in the Castleton Square? I drive by there every now and then when i go
to lunch, the place i work at is right
off gray road, its a trucking company. Sorry for any typos, i turned off auto correct so i can train myself to type fast without messing up or having auto correct change my favorite word to duck. It ducking pisses me off!
i have not finished reading this but i just wanted to tell you what led me to fimd this. Im in the bathroom at work, frustrated with current state laws that prohibit me from obtainjng the only medicine that works for me without turning me imto a full blown drug addict, I typed "I hate indiana" in google search so i could read why other people hate it here and hopefully not be as frustrated as i was when i started knowing that other relatively close by citizens felt the same. Anyways im originally from northwest indiana, then moved to just south of south bend, and now i live in kokomo, i worked on the east side of indy for about two months and then came to the place im at now which is in Carmel. not sure which side, we are just north of 86th street. Its way better now that inhave mobed down here closer to the city, but growimg up out in the country in Indiana is rough. ive never hated a staye more in my life than this one. i come from a poor family so im doimg everything i can to get the hell out of this sad sack sorry good for nothing ass state. People here dont value anything, people here absoluely digust me, and the buggest thing ive learned about Indiana, is that people will do absolutely any, and everything to avoid actually doimg their job/doing anything. People here are so lazy, and very very very uneducated about what goes on outside of their hometowns. So yea to wrap it all up, I feel your pain, and I Hate INDIANA!!!!!
I’m so glad you found my piece, Cody! How wild that you are in Carmel around 86th street. 20 years ago when I was in college I used to work at a movie theater nearby called Castleton Arts that showed foreign and indie movies.
Why do you think the culture in Indiana is so terrible? Do you think it’s something specific about the state or is it more just the Midwest in general that sucks?
I loved your story about Indiana. Your right about everything. I feel stuck here like that too. I will never get out, but I have God. It was nice reading and knowing that someone else gets it....about this state. God bless you.
David/Sally- Please take all my posts, information, and any other related to editing off the site. I’m very happy that you are working through your past, present, and finding what you wish to be in the future and I wish you both healing, mind and body. I’m sorry that you were treated poorly and suffered such a great deal of anxiety as a result.
This is a very cruel comment from someone I've been encouraging with her writing for many years and regarded as a friend. Even more cruel that you felt the need to post it in public on a post where I'm trying to be very honest about how growing up here was very damaging to me. You're sort of proving my point about how cruel and intolerant Midwest culture as a whole truly is. I'm shocked that you would post this.
I'm so sorry if this piece gave the impression, in denouncing Indiana, that Michigan was also in the crosshairs! It is not. Though I, too, am a native Hoosier, my family has maintained a treasured vacation property in MI, in the woods outside of Cadillac, for four generations now. Our darling niece lives up in Ypsilanti. And David's mom grew up in MI! So "Pure Michigan" 🤣 will be in his blood both biologically and by marriage.
Neither of us wants you to feel that the criticisms levied at Midwest culture were meant to apply to your home state. We both think of MI more as a part of the Wisconsin/Minnesota "Great North" area. I personally have nothing but happy memories made there.
This is correct. I don't have animosity toward Michigan and don't regard it as part of the Midwest. I have a generally positive view of the Wisconsin/Minnesota/Michigan region. Especially Wisconsin because of their amazing cheese. To me the Midwest is Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky. (Though Iowa blends with the Great North states and Kentucky blends with the South.) But especially the trio of Illinois, Indiana and Ohio - they're the heart of the Midwest and really what I'm most talking about as "Midwest culture."
Great Sunday reading while watching a wealthy Indianapolis church move in across the street and excuse the poor neighbors after one community service last summer. I dread Sundays - the neighbors don't come out of their apartment building anymore.
I'm glad you liked it so much! Thank you.
In my view "wealthy church" is such a contradiction in terms since Jesus made more than clear how hard it was for the wealthy to get into heaven...
Really enjoyed your essay, David. I love the vivid and voluminous detail.
I see many parallels in this essay with growing up in a working class family on Long Island in the 60s-70s. It was not remotely diverse where I grew up, except that many people were immigrants from Europe. (My mom came from Germany.) We had a single black teacher, Mr. Countryman, one or two black students, and a smattering of Puerto Ricans in my high school. That has changed dramatically and for the better on Long Island, though problems remain of course.
Our lives focused on labor, on earning, on making a living, on being very practical--a theme that I return to often in my fiction. My story "The Stainless Steel Hubcap Principle" is about this, and will appear this summer in a Substack short fiction anthology called "Masculine."
Most of the choices presented to me were be a laborer, learn a trade, join the police department, or get a job with the town. (I did labor and trade until I went to college in my late 20s.) Need to make more money? Get a side job. Or two! My people dreamed of getting a boat to go fishing and clamming (I got my first at 14). Your first vehicle was a van where you drank and had sex.
But what I identify with more in your essay is being the book-reading, story-writing geek, on the sensitive side, not dressed cool, uncool haircut, not good at sports--not a boy's boy at all. This led to severe bullying, which in the 70s was of the spit/punch-in-the-face variety that teachers dismissed or ignored as just boys workin' things out. I literally had to pull a knife once. Other times I had to (when I finally snapped in to rage) smash teeth and braces out of mouths or run a bully's head into a brick wall. You had no choice. If you didn't fight back, they would crush you.
The thing I laugh about the most is being called a "faggot" and "queer" for (wait for it) reading books. So THAT'S what causes it! I thought it was domineering mothers.
I think it's just that old idea that being "sensitive" as a boy is weakness. And gay men were all, of course, sensitive and "effeminate," so are therefore weak. Fucking nuts! Yes, youngun's, it was really that bad in my day. The ignorance was miles deep.
Okay, that's enough for now. Glad we crossed paths. I look forward to reading more of your stuff. And I DO understand your Indiana experience to some extent based on my years in the Midwest. There are some extreme class divisions and religious identities that make the idea of one friendly, down-home, corn-consuming Midwest ridiculous.
The best thing that you had going for you is that you were able to live in other states and places rather than Indiana. I live currently in Southern Indiana and once my parents pass on its probably moving to somewhere else which is my real goal. The so called Christianitiy that is practiced here is basically useless unless you want to talk about the same things over and over and then most of the people don't act Christlike as they would tell you. That said I've been comfortable being around the so called "saved" because hypocrisy and double standards is rife in their religion.
I live in the Southern part of the state near Louisville, KY but I have lived in Northern Indiana near Chicago then in Central Indiana near Indianapolis, spent years in Bloomington at school and around the campus of Indiana University, spent a few years in New Albany, had family in Shelbyville, Indianapolis and Greenfield. I'm definitely ready for a change. If things were a bit different or if I ever hit the lottery its probably going to be to the West Coast. The South doesn't appeal to me one bit with the deep fried Southern Baptist mentality that exists down there. The East Coast is ok but the summers largely suck and are humid and nasty and then the winter will cut you to the bone with snowstorms and noreasters. The Midwest weather largely sucks here and the people here are mediocre. I can say that living in both Indiana and Kentucky and spending a lot of time in Ohio and Illinois as well. I spent 5 years in Kentucky and it was a total hell hole of a state including Louisville supposedly being the largest city in Kentucky but might as well had been Knoxville or some dumpy place like Chattanooga.
Indiana is at the very best mediocre all the way around. The education system is mediocre finishing in the bottom 20 states. The economy is mediocre being the 38th richest state in the country. The only bright spot is the universities here with Indiana University, Purdue University, Notre Dame, IUPUI, Rose Hulman and a few other smaller schools
Which means you can get an education, find a job elsewhere and get the hell out. At this point I am too invested in this state and county where I currently live. Sometimes I wish to travel the world and leave the United States. Even if I can't I would hope to go to a state such as California, Oregon or Washington. Nevada, Utah and Arizona don't really appeal to me and nor do the Rocky Mountain states although Colorado was relatively nice though expensive. That said it would still be better than the Midwest and Indiana.
The people in Indiana are like I SAID extremely mediocre. A few years ago I was looking to start a local hifi audio group and people get together and do music or play music or even share ideas and tips. The only response was someone wanting to put together something for money. No thanks because I can already design my own system just interested in sharing tips, ideas and opinions and stuff like that. The same people sit all day on their phones bitching about something on Facebook or some other social media. That seems to be the current state of affairs in this hideous state. People here are massively boring and have no real interests in the most part outside of work or their churchianity or some other social club. No interests in music, electronics, history, culture or most anything else. I know there are places like Bloomington or Indy that have people who are more diverse and not watching the same streaming crap day in and day out but they are 1 to 2 hours away and that is a one way trip so its 2 hours to 2 1/2 to Bloomington to there and back and Indianapolis is about 4 hours to Indianapolis and back at 100 miles away. Louisville is about 1 hour away here and well ITS KENTUCKY and frankly Kentucky sucks even more than Indiana.
The general culture here promotes laziness, being a nasty pig, not cleaning up after yourself, constant religious browbeating, mass hypocrisy, focus on politics constantly being a red state, sports being IU and the Colts. Interestingly down here the Pacers don't really even register in Southern Indiana once you get past Columbus and Bloomington. Even though in 2025 the idiots were talking about Southern Indiana being Pacers country in the NBA. Even though I have lived here for most of my life minus 10 years and I've rarely seen a Pacers shirt, jersey or jacket here in Southern Indiana. This is combination IU country and Kentucky basketball country due to the Kentuckians that have moved to Indiana to get the hell out of Kentucky.
The culture here in many ways is Southern and the worst of Southern humanity with a slight Midwestern twist. I was born here many decades ago in the 1970s but I never have felt like I really belonged here except for being dumped here after birth as my family was originally from Indiana but at least from the Central Part near Indy. That said I don't share a lot of views, opinions or ideas with the locals who have problems thinking outside of the box of what they have always known. Its quite pathetic that their worldview is so limited with the poor education that they receive from the public school system in this state.
Good for you that you were able to escape and thrive because living here is merely existing.
I think the culture is so terrible because the majority of people that live here havent ever expwrienced anything other than this. That beimg said, the majoritu of those people dont like or welcome change, i mean, loom how long it took for them to accept that there are people that arent the same color as them. Its absolutely absurd. Generally speaking though, i think its definitly a midwest thing, not just indiana. To amswer your question on where would i like to live, i havent quite narrowed it down yet and Im sure thats one of the main reasons im still here, that and my familyis here so it would just be a nightmare traveling back and forth now thay my parents are getting older. However, i will not stay here forever, if i have to sell everything i own and live in my car for a while then so be it. I can tell you that wherever i go, its going to
be somewhere that doesnt really have a winter. I absolutely hate the cold. That movie theatre, is it in the Castleton Square? I drive by there every now and then when i go
to lunch, the place i work at is right
off gray road, its a trucking company. Sorry for any typos, i turned off auto correct so i can train myself to type fast without messing up or having auto correct change my favorite word to duck. It ducking pisses me off!
i have not finished reading this but i just wanted to tell you what led me to fimd this. Im in the bathroom at work, frustrated with current state laws that prohibit me from obtainjng the only medicine that works for me without turning me imto a full blown drug addict, I typed "I hate indiana" in google search so i could read why other people hate it here and hopefully not be as frustrated as i was when i started knowing that other relatively close by citizens felt the same. Anyways im originally from northwest indiana, then moved to just south of south bend, and now i live in kokomo, i worked on the east side of indy for about two months and then came to the place im at now which is in Carmel. not sure which side, we are just north of 86th street. Its way better now that inhave mobed down here closer to the city, but growimg up out in the country in Indiana is rough. ive never hated a staye more in my life than this one. i come from a poor family so im doimg everything i can to get the hell out of this sad sack sorry good for nothing ass state. People here dont value anything, people here absoluely digust me, and the buggest thing ive learned about Indiana, is that people will do absolutely any, and everything to avoid actually doimg their job/doing anything. People here are so lazy, and very very very uneducated about what goes on outside of their hometowns. So yea to wrap it all up, I feel your pain, and I Hate INDIANA!!!!!
I’m so glad you found my piece, Cody! How wild that you are in Carmel around 86th street. 20 years ago when I was in college I used to work at a movie theater nearby called Castleton Arts that showed foreign and indie movies.
Why do you think the culture in Indiana is so terrible? Do you think it’s something specific about the state or is it more just the Midwest in general that sucks?
And where do you want to live instead?
I loved your story about Indiana. Your right about everything. I feel stuck here like that too. I will never get out, but I have God. It was nice reading and knowing that someone else gets it....about this state. God bless you.
Thank you for your kind words. Please tell me more more about your experiences and perspective.
David/Sally- Please take all my posts, information, and any other related to editing off the site. I’m very happy that you are working through your past, present, and finding what you wish to be in the future and I wish you both healing, mind and body. I’m sorry that you were treated poorly and suffered such a great deal of anxiety as a result.
Thank you-
Audie Cockings
Traverse City, Michigan, Midwest
Not a shitty, bigoted place or people.
This is a very cruel comment from someone I've been encouraging with her writing for many years and regarded as a friend. Even more cruel that you felt the need to post it in public on a post where I'm trying to be very honest about how growing up here was very damaging to me. You're sort of proving my point about how cruel and intolerant Midwest culture as a whole truly is. I'm shocked that you would post this.
Hi, Audie,
I'm so sorry if this piece gave the impression, in denouncing Indiana, that Michigan was also in the crosshairs! It is not. Though I, too, am a native Hoosier, my family has maintained a treasured vacation property in MI, in the woods outside of Cadillac, for four generations now. Our darling niece lives up in Ypsilanti. And David's mom grew up in MI! So "Pure Michigan" 🤣 will be in his blood both biologically and by marriage.
Neither of us wants you to feel that the criticisms levied at Midwest culture were meant to apply to your home state. We both think of MI more as a part of the Wisconsin/Minnesota "Great North" area. I personally have nothing but happy memories made there.
Thank you for sharing your feedback!
This is correct. I don't have animosity toward Michigan and don't regard it as part of the Midwest. I have a generally positive view of the Wisconsin/Minnesota/Michigan region. Especially Wisconsin because of their amazing cheese. To me the Midwest is Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky. (Though Iowa blends with the Great North states and Kentucky blends with the South.) But especially the trio of Illinois, Indiana and Ohio - they're the heart of the Midwest and really what I'm most talking about as "Midwest culture."