But I mean that one can choose to believe in whichever moral value system one wants - communism, fascism, anarchism, monarchism. Etc. One can pick whatever system of moral values one wants.
That's just not how beliefs work in my mind. People either believe something or we don't.
We can be convinced to believe differently from what we currently believe. But ultimately, it's not a choice.
What you're talking about sounds more related to ideology, religion, etc., which are more about doctrine and adhering to a doctrine. But general beliefs about right and wrong, as far as I can tell, are more based in culture, family, environment and personal experience.
I don't understand. You're really saying that you don't think people can choose what to believe? That "culture, family, environment and personal experience" just force people to believe certain things?
That isn't my experience. Seems to me like individuals can choose whether they want to believe what "culture, family, environment and personal experience" tell them. These aren't homogenous things. We all have access to many different cultures and we can choose which culture's set of moral values we want to believe.
I'll put it this way. None of us were born into this world believing anything in particular, besides the need for the basics like food and water.
At some point, our environments shaped our beliefs. We didn't necessarily choose to start believing in anything.
A personal example: My politics have ranged from pretty far left to pretty far right to wherever the hell I am now. But I don't think at any point I made a conscious choice to be any of these things. Education, experience, growth, etc. convinced me to go this way or that way. I can't imagine most people don't have a similar experience.
And let's not forget there are a lot of people who pretend to believe in things they don't actually believe in. And people who believe in things that they pretend not to believe in. They may choose to appear a certain way, but we believe what we believe.
"But I don't think at any point I made a conscious choice to be any of these things. Education, experience, growth, etc. convinced me to go this way or that way."
You're removing your own personal agency here, though. It wasn't that your education/experience/growth made you believe something. You personally made the choice to change based on your education/experience/growth.
I totally understand changing from left to right to becoming somewhere in between. I made that journey too. But at each stage of the journey it was my conscious choice to change my beliefs, often to serious personal consequences such as losing friends or even needing to change career paths. The education/experience/growth informed my choices, but I was the one who made the choices.
Let me frame it this way. When I was a teenager I had been raised as a liberal Christian--my Dad's theology. But when I started going to youth group in 6th grade, I specifically chose to become an Evangelical Christian--the youth pastor's theology. And then over the next few years I did gain more education/experience/growth and ultimately CHOSE to return to embracing my Dad's liberal Christianity. But I was the one in the driver's seat on that decision. I specifically chose which set of theologies and moral values to believe.
And I assert that is how it is with everyone. We all get to choose what exactly we want to believe about anything. We aren't just passively pushed around by our experiences.
We are deep in agree-to-disagree territory, David =).
It's not a critical point of disagreement. Just a different way of looking at the same thing I guess.
Case in point: I used to think Donald Trump was a legitimate businessman. I don't anymore. New information changed my mind.
I used to think Bill Cosby was a standup guy. I don't anymore. New information changed my mind.
Hell, I used to think better of my country. But recent elections and whatnot revealed some things that changed my mind. It's not a case of, "Okay. Today, I'm gonna believe Cosby is a pure soul. Tomorrow, I'm gonna believe he's the devil. And next week I'll be back to believing he's the salt of the earth."
It's not about 'agency' so much, practically speaking. If I place my hand on a hot stove, sure, I can choose to keep it there and cause myself severe damage. But that wouldn't be logical or sane.
*You* chose to change your mind based on the new information you found. *You* assessed and analyzed the information through the values that *you* choose to believe in.
We all choose whether we want to believe particular information and then how we want to analyze it.
That if a person doesn't believe in God, they're subject to believe in 'anything?'
That's like saying a person can't have strong moral principles without a belief in God. That makes no sense to me.
But can’t they believe in whatever moral principles they want?
I don't think it's anywhere near that simple.
I don't think someone can be in favor of child sacrifice one day and totally against it the next just because.
But I mean that one can choose to believe in whichever moral value system one wants - communism, fascism, anarchism, monarchism. Etc. One can pick whatever system of moral values one wants.
That's just not how beliefs work in my mind. People either believe something or we don't.
We can be convinced to believe differently from what we currently believe. But ultimately, it's not a choice.
What you're talking about sounds more related to ideology, religion, etc., which are more about doctrine and adhering to a doctrine. But general beliefs about right and wrong, as far as I can tell, are more based in culture, family, environment and personal experience.
I don't understand. You're really saying that you don't think people can choose what to believe? That "culture, family, environment and personal experience" just force people to believe certain things?
That isn't my experience. Seems to me like individuals can choose whether they want to believe what "culture, family, environment and personal experience" tell them. These aren't homogenous things. We all have access to many different cultures and we can choose which culture's set of moral values we want to believe.
I'll put it this way. None of us were born into this world believing anything in particular, besides the need for the basics like food and water.
At some point, our environments shaped our beliefs. We didn't necessarily choose to start believing in anything.
A personal example: My politics have ranged from pretty far left to pretty far right to wherever the hell I am now. But I don't think at any point I made a conscious choice to be any of these things. Education, experience, growth, etc. convinced me to go this way or that way. I can't imagine most people don't have a similar experience.
And let's not forget there are a lot of people who pretend to believe in things they don't actually believe in. And people who believe in things that they pretend not to believe in. They may choose to appear a certain way, but we believe what we believe.
"But I don't think at any point I made a conscious choice to be any of these things. Education, experience, growth, etc. convinced me to go this way or that way."
You're removing your own personal agency here, though. It wasn't that your education/experience/growth made you believe something. You personally made the choice to change based on your education/experience/growth.
I totally understand changing from left to right to becoming somewhere in between. I made that journey too. But at each stage of the journey it was my conscious choice to change my beliefs, often to serious personal consequences such as losing friends or even needing to change career paths. The education/experience/growth informed my choices, but I was the one who made the choices.
Let me frame it this way. When I was a teenager I had been raised as a liberal Christian--my Dad's theology. But when I started going to youth group in 6th grade, I specifically chose to become an Evangelical Christian--the youth pastor's theology. And then over the next few years I did gain more education/experience/growth and ultimately CHOSE to return to embracing my Dad's liberal Christianity. But I was the one in the driver's seat on that decision. I specifically chose which set of theologies and moral values to believe.
And I assert that is how it is with everyone. We all get to choose what exactly we want to believe about anything. We aren't just passively pushed around by our experiences.
We are deep in agree-to-disagree territory, David =).
It's not a critical point of disagreement. Just a different way of looking at the same thing I guess.
Case in point: I used to think Donald Trump was a legitimate businessman. I don't anymore. New information changed my mind.
I used to think Bill Cosby was a standup guy. I don't anymore. New information changed my mind.
Hell, I used to think better of my country. But recent elections and whatnot revealed some things that changed my mind. It's not a case of, "Okay. Today, I'm gonna believe Cosby is a pure soul. Tomorrow, I'm gonna believe he's the devil. And next week I'll be back to believing he's the salt of the earth."
It's not about 'agency' so much, practically speaking. If I place my hand on a hot stove, sure, I can choose to keep it there and cause myself severe damage. But that wouldn't be logical or sane.
*You* chose to change your mind based on the new information you found. *You* assessed and analyzed the information through the values that *you* choose to believe in.
We all choose whether we want to believe particular information and then how we want to analyze it.
Feels like splitting hairs to me. But as I said, 'agree to disagree.' Nice chat as usual.