This post is the twenty-ninth in an ongoing series on antisemitism and culture. See the previous installments here:
What It Means When the Leader of the Republican Party Dines With THREE Antisemites
What Causes Someone to Be an Antisemite?
When & Why Conspiracy Theorists Sometimes Stumble Onto the Truth
The JFK Conspiracy Theory Which Makes the Most Sense & Why It Matters Today
An Open Letter to Elon Musk Thanking Him for the Correct Decision Shutting Down Neo-Nazi Kanye West
Why Morally Decent People Can't Buy Bitcoin
4 Stupid Reasons People Don't Take Antisemitism as Seriously as They Should
Obsessing Over 'the Left' Sabotages the Fight Against Antisemitism
Is Campus Antisemitism So Pervasive It's Now Normal?
Elon Musk Brings Onboard 'How to Fight Anti-Semitism' Author Bari Weiss to Twitter 2.0
Even the Smartest Brains Can Become Infected with Antisemitism
How Hanukkah Should Inspire Christians Too
Is Qatar the Most Terrible State in the Middle East? Or Is Iran Worse?
How the Bible Reveals the 3 Types of Antisemites
3 Hidden Weapons to Defend the Jewish State
Indifferent to Racist Hate in America, Indifferent to Genocidal Hate in Ukraine
Please, My Jewish Friends: We Desperately Need You Here in America
7 Reasons This Christian Hippie Became a Zealot Against Jew Hatred
What Zionism Means to Me Today
Bipolar Disorder Is Not an Excuse for Kanye West's Jew Hatred
How to Satirize the Idiotic Haters
Why This Bible Thumper Is Going to Keep Using Plenty of Profanity
The Torah Should Be the Moral Foundation for All
3 Reasons Why Everyone Should Cancel Netflix
Kevin McCarthy Makes a Deal with the Devilish Far Right Allies of Antisemitism and Genocide
How Multi-Faith Mysticism & Maimonides Can Bring Peace to Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Everyone
Must Amazon Sell Antisemitism?
RIP Paul Johnson, a Catholic Warrior in Defense of the Jewish People
These writings are part of my ongoing effort to overcome my PTSD by forcing myself to try to write and publish something every day commenting on and analyzing current cultural affairs and their impacts on politics, faith, and, well, everything. “Politics is downstream from culture,” the late Andrew Breitbart popularized among conservative bloggers while he was alive. I’d go a step further: Everything is downstream from culture. The cultures you embrace determine who you are and who you become. You become what you worship .
I usually will only publish a single installment in this series each day but now I’ve decided to offer two since today is Saturday and this one feels like a distinctly Jewish debate I had with someone who is Jewish himself. For tomorrow’s installment - Sunday’s - I hope to write more deeply on the implications of what I argued so passionately here from a Christian perspective.
So when I was feeling pretty lousy on Thursday as I was recovering from my seizure on Wednesday night I did something I often regret later but felt I could justify doing given the subject matter and since it was supposed to be a day of rest: fall into a seemingly fruitless Twitter debate that lasted the entire day .
I’ve often argued with this guy before about stuff and it usually goes nowhere but it’s instructional about a particular kind of mind type which I’ve come to despise over the decades: the fundamentalist . The member of all faiths - or even of no faith, this guy describes himself as a non-religious Jew - who wants to focus on “the fundamentals” and understand seemingly everything as simply and clearly as they can.
As a self-described “Judeo-Christian mystic” - which I ended up explaining to my interlocutor near the end of the debate - I abhor fundamentalism. I can’t stand people who think they have the one, true, correct interpretation of scripture or the singular best way to analyze the world.
Being a Christian since childhood and a serious engager with Jewish/Israeli issues since 2009, I’ve see with such clarity the internal debates and myriad ways of interpreting the Bible. And I’ve often had a hard time taking firm sides in the intra-Christian and intra-Jewish theological debates. Both the “liberal” theologies and the “conservative” theologies seem to have some legitimate points which the extremists in their midst then take too far.
Having embraced the mystic current I largely feel like I need to hold both in my mind at the same time. On the one hand I share the “liberal” reading of scripture which acknowledges a broad range of interpretations. On the other hand I share the “conservative” reading that on some matters we do need to just take a “leap of faith” and believe literally in at least some of the Bible’s claims. Otherwise we fall into moral anarchy.
One of my favorite occult aphorisms for a long time has been attributed to Hassan I Sabah, whose biography by James Wasserman I’ve been reading and blogging about here:
Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
Now that statement is not at all a nihilistic endorsement to go and do anything. Rather, it’s a warning that when we choose to believe nothing is true, we are defenseless to oppose any form of cruelty and violence.
My debate partner, who calls himself “ Tigger’s Dan ” on Twitter, seems to intuit that concept - that without proper definitions chaos ensues and communication is impossible. He’s obsessed with the idea, and much of our discussion involved me trying to wake him up that in taking it to the extremes he did he was just oversimplifying the world.
Now, this debate took place over a whole day, across multiple threads, hitting on a variety of topics, so presenting it and summarizing it has been quite the task. I’ll do the best I can and eliminate redundant or irrelevant tracks of it.
MY APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR HOW LONG IT IS! When I know that I’m right about something I tend not to give up until I’ve worn down my opponent to the point where THEY give up.
It began when Dan asked:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I genuinely don’t get this “we shouldn’t gatekeep Judaism thing”….
Ok so someone who was born a Christian who still believes in Jesus and does not one Jewish thing… can call themselves Jewish then? Makes no sense to me
1:25 PM · Jan 12, 2023
20 Likes
I responded linking to the 26th installment in this series and asking the question I would repeat endlessly in discussion. If Jews are to engage in “gatekeeping” who counts as a Jew and who does not, then who specifically has the authority to determine who gets through the gate?
I also stated my position right up front: in my view all that it takes to count as a “Jew” is that one chooses to identify as such. The contents of their beliefs and depths of their religious practice as a Jew is entirely up to them and nobody has the authority to cast judgment on them.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Who has the authority to play gatekeeper? Even among Jews they disagree who is a “real” Jew and who isn’t.
People can self-identify however they want and make their own blend of traditions as they see fit. We should all embrace a lot of Jewish ideas.
godofthedesert.substack.com
How Multi-Faith Mysticism & Maimonides Can Bring Peace to Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Everyone
Dan argued that in setting the bar so low it drained the word “Jew” of meaning:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so someone can believe in Jesus and the New Testament and be a Jew? Then being a Jew means nothing. You see that right? It’s an empty category.
2:21 PM · Jan 12, 2023
3 Likes
I pointed out that there was a type of Jews who did believe in Jesus and that I myself considered myself a blending of both traditions:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
There are “Messianic Jews” who do that exact thing. I am a Judeo-Christian mystic who blends the 2 traditions. I am neither Jew nor Christian but both. This is too complicated for most people who want to oversimplify the world too much.
Dan seemed to think I was dodging his question, a charge he often makes in our discussions when I respond with too complex an answer for him to easily grasp:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
can you address my question?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I just did! What question do you think I am dodging?
He restated his challenge:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
If a Jew can be and believe anything then what meaning does “Jew” have?
And then I explained the real challenge of the question, that the word has multiple overlapping meanings and that even among Jews it has engendered fierce debate for a long time:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It has multiple meanings. It refers to a religion, a culture, and an ethnic group. And Jews themselves disagree over what it means to be a real Jew. One group is always accusing another of being fake Jews.
Dan was trying to find a bare minimum definition of “Jew” and thought that mere belief in the Torah and its God or being born Jewish was sufficient:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
well notice I set a very very low bar. Believe in the Torah and the God of the Torah or be part of the tribe by blood.
2:30 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Then someone else jumped into the conversation to support Dan’s point:
Holy Forking ShirtBalls @MissBeaHavin
Jews cannot open their arms to any thing goes and maintain a peoplehood or faith.
2:31 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Exactly, this should be so obvious and for some reason it’s not.
2:31 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
All one has to do is Google the history of the subject for 20 minutes and it’s clear just how complex the question is:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It’s not obvious because history is more complex than you want it to be. Study Jewish history and religion more as I have for almost 20 years and you’ll understand the complexities here.
Dan is perpetually looking for “a simple concept” to grab hold of to make sense of an over-complicated world:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Not sophistry wrong word. But you’re over complicating a simple concept.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
History shows it is not a simple concept. And you don’t know the history as well as I do here.
2:38 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Then I laid out the basic faith divisions among Jews:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Jews are a very divided people and argue deeply about their faith. Reform, conservative, Orthodox, Haredi, Reconstructionist. Each of these Jewish faiths is very different and they have been in conflict a long time.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
And I’m arguing we need to have some non negotiable requirements. Like the ones I listed earlier
I restated my original point again, that as much as Dan wanted there to be someone who could end the debate, there really isn’t anyone of such power:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Who has the authority to set such requirements? No one does.
Dan kept on using the word “logic” and trying to say what my “logic” was and how illogical my ideas supposedly were. I had learned quickly with him this was just his form of fundamentalism:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
So by your logic a Muslim can call themslesvs a Jew. Can you at least acknowledge that makes the category of Jew meaningless?
This was an opening for me to again reference the essay in this series which explained Sufis who embraced Jewish ideas:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
No. Historically there have been Muslims who embraced Jewish ideas. They are called Sufis and they are heavily influenced by Jewish mysticism. One can embrace both Jewish and Muslim mystical ideas and I do. I just wrote an essay explaining this.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Sure, that doesn’t make them Jews tho
I again stated the question which he was just not getting:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Who has the authority to make that decision about who counts as a Jew and who does not?
Now we were starting to get somewhere when he finally answered the question:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
when it comes to the religion? Those with authority within the religion should get to dictate it.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But there are conflicting “authorities” within every religion. And nobody has true authority above all. Not even the Pope among Catholics.
Oh no Dan, don’t think that the “religious texts” outline the standards because they certainly do not:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
sure and they need to hash it out. Also I believe the standards were outlined in our religious texts. That seems fairly authoritative.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
They can’t hash it out. They’ve tried for 2000 years. The standards are not outlined in the texts themselves. The texts are very complex. Hence why there is endless debate.
Dan returned to his insistence that there had to be a bare minimum somewhere in order for someone to call themselves a “Jew”:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
well can we agree Jew doesn’t have endless meanings? Can we agree someone who doesn’t believe in the Jewish God can’t convert to the religion? There are some very basic foundational concepts I’m sure most would agree on
And I returned to my point that “Jew” transcends just a believer in the religion, that there wasn’t even a “the religion” when it came to Judaism, but many competing ones:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
There are Jews who don’t believe in the Jewish God. Jews are cultures, religions, and ethnic groups and that confuses things a lot.
There isn’t a “the religion.” There are multiple forms of Judaism and Jewishness.
Dan then tried to specify that he was just talking about the religion and that converts needed to have some bare minimum of belief:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Ya ethnic Jews. But if you’re converting to the religion and you don’t believe in the Torah or the God… then what about it is Judaism if you’re rejecting the most foundational aspects of it?
I was picking up on now just how fundamentalist his approach actually was. Fundamentalists always talk about “foundational aspects” of their religion and how everyone must believe in them:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Nobody can define what the “foundational aspects” of any religion really are. It is an endless debate always historically.
Dan still wanted to insist that there had to be some bare minimums one embraced in order to count:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
just cause some clowns disagree doesn’t mean the vast majority won’t agree on very basic things like belief in the Jewish God and the Torah. One can appreciate and learn from Judaism and mix it with other religions without actually being a Jew.
3:02 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It’s not clowns who disagree. I don’t consider myself a Jew. But other people sometimes do and mistake me for one all the time.
So he posed the question directly:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
and what is a Jew Dave
3:05 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
And I answered it directly:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Someone who self-identifies as such based on some affinity to either Jewish religion, culture or ethnicity.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
what’s Jewish religion culture or ethnicity? Since that can be anything. I hope your starting to see the issue here…
I continued to emphasize the complexity of Jewish history to him:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
There are multiple versions of all 3. That is the issue here.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Infinite versions according to you
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
According to history.
He continued to push the point that one could not just self-apply the label “Jew” and then live as a Christian:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
again by this logic a Christian who does everything a Christian would do and nothing a Jew would do could self identify a Jew. Making the word “Jew” meaningless
3:12 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Obviously if they call themselves a Jew they do at least some of the things a Jew would do.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Says who? So you’re saying you must do some things a Jew does to be considered a Jew?
I again stated the problem of authority, which he still had yet to fully acknowledge but would eventually:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Exactly - “says who”? There is disagreement among Jews about what the bare minimum is of those things one must do to be considered a Jew.
Then he reached for a simplistic comparison to try and make his point:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
And that doesn’t mean we don’t need an answer to that. Let me ask you this. Am I soccer player if I’ve never played soccer?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Jews have been trying to get an answer to it for centuries and the result is the multiple branches of Judaism, Jewish culture, and differing ethnicities.
I played soccer when I was a kid but haven’t in over 20 years. Am I a soccer player?
BTW soccer is way simpler than Jews.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
You were a soccer player. The over arching point here that without specific meaning words and categories become meaningless. I have yet to hear a good counter argument from you other than “it’s hard to the draw lines”
I threw his silly soccer argument back in his face emphasizing how even there it was a subjective label:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
That is my argument. History shows that it is hard to draw the lines. Wars are fought over the lines. Religions split up over the lines.
I still could play soccer if I wanted so by some people’s definition I still am a soccer player. I know how to play and can if I want.
He shifted tactics now, toward his obsession that without clear definitions words cannot have meaning and communication cannot happen:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
sure, now would you still be a soccer player if you were playing basketball but calling it soccer?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
In my own head I would be.
Holy Forking ShirtBalls @MissBeaHavin
See a psychiatrist seriously
4:09 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
I knew that this person was insulting me but I decided to take their point seriously and throw it back in their face to show what a jerk they were being:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I do to treat my really bad PTSD but so far it’s been hard to find the right meds and correct dosages. PTSD very difficult to treat effectively much of the time.
On another thread of the discussion Dan continued with his efforts to make me accept that words had to have simple meanings in order for communication to happen:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
you’re using sophistry to avoid the obviously true point here Dave. If the word “straw” can mean anything… then is it a useful word/category?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I am not using sophistry. I am disputing your oversimplifying. “Straw” does have multiple meanings. A straw poll is not the same as a drinking straw or straw hay. Words are complex. Language is complex. You are the one who wants to oversimplify literally everything.
This concept that “if words mean anything, they mean nothing” was one of his mantras:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Does it have infinite meanings? Or does it have constraints?
It’s because this is a simple question. If words can mean anything then they mean nothing.
When it comes to arguing about language my years of studying Robert Anton Wilson have taken their toll on my cynicism about words:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Words do mean nothing. The meaning we assign to them is always arbitrary and changes over time. Language is complex too and you are oversimplify.
Now answer my question: Who has the authority to set the constraints of what one must do/believe to be a Jew?
He was still not getting my point about how no one has the authority to say what one must do or believe to count as a Jew:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
words don’t mean nothing. We assign them meaning. And tribal jews not converts should set the standards. Again if a jew can believe in Jesus and the New Testament then what does it mean to be a jew?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
People disagree about word meanings. Tribal Jews can’t even agree on the standards. This is a perpetual internal debate among Jews and there is no authority to ever end it.
Dan was still doing his very best to dismiss my point about the complexity of Jewish history on the subject:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Doesn’t mean there is no need to gatekeep… again what meaning does “Jew” have if anyone with any ancestry or any belief system can call themslesvs a Jew?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Same as what “straw” means. Words have multiple meanings. Jew refers to religions, cultures, and ethnic groups all at once.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
straw has finite meanings that are context dependent. It doesn’t have unlimited meanings.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It does have infinite meanings. All words do. Changing Context changes meaning.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so “straw” can mean “pool” then? That’s what infinite meanings means.
Then I paid homage to Wilson and his influence on me here:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Sure. Someone could call their pool “straw” as its name or design a “straw pool.” Language is arbitrary. Robert Anton Wilson explains this in his many books.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
What’s the point of language Dave? To convey meaning. It only works with shared and agreed upon meaning for words. Otherwise communication wouldn’t be possible.
Dan and I weren’t really communicating even though we spoke the same language because he chooses to understand language in a much simpler way than I do:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But meaning changes in context and over time.
Communication often isn’t possible. You and I aren’t really communicating.
He conceded my point that words’ meaning change over time but did not yet grasp the full implications of it:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Yes meaning changes over time but that’s different than a word having no static meaning or a word having infinite meaning. Again without agreed upon definitions for words, communication would not be possible.
In a new thread he returned to his original effort - insisting that there must be some bare minimum of belief in order for someone to religiously count as a Jew:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
well can we agree Jew doesn’t have endless meanings? Can we agree someone who doesn’t believe in the Jewish God can’t convert to the religion? There are some very basic foundational concepts I’m sure most would agree on
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
There are Jews who don’t believe in the Jewish God. Jews are cultures, religions, and ethnic groups and that confuses things a lot.
There isn’t a “the religion.” There are multiple forms of Judaism and Jewishness.
There was that give-away word “foundational” again:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Ya ethnic Jews. But if you’re converting to the religion and you don’t believe in the Torah or the God… then what about it is Judaism if you’re rejecting the most foundational aspects of it?
Meanwhile we were having a debate about his incorrect use of “whattaboutism” which I tried to explain in the historical context and he kept rejecting was irrelevant to the conversation. Eventually I tied the two discussions together to show how his literalism was related:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Explain how the history of the term whataboutism is relevant to the convo about gatekeeping Judaism. Also by your logic I can’t misuse the word since it has infinite meanings, right? Since you said words have infinite meanings.
He had attempted to claim that “whataboutism” meant trying to distract someone with a random subject in a debate. I had given him the historical background on it, that it wasn’t a random subject being chosen, but something somehow related to the subject tangentially. I had given him the traditional “whataboutism” of the Soviet Union trying to deflect from its own human rights record by pointing to Southern oppression of blacks in the pre-civil rights era.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
In both cases you don’t get how the term is more complex and has much more history than you are using it. You need to study history more deeply.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Which is relevant to the convo how?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I am saying you need more historical understanding to use these terms competently.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
And why is that? How is that relevant to the topic?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
What do you think the “topic” is?
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
gatekeeping Judaism. I literally started this convo so I think I know what the topic is 😂
Dan often wanted to do this in our discussions. He would claim that when I brought up related subjects the they had nothing to do with what “the topic” was which he wanted to discuss exclusively.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
We were talking about that and also “whataboutism” and also language in general and history.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Na that was just me responding to a comment I found off topic. It is not the topic of Convo I set out to discuss.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But my point is that there are multiple topics we are discussing, not just 1. You oversimplify so much.
This was his common complaint with me - “you always get lost in the weeds when we discuss something”:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
It’s necessary because you always get lost in the weeds when we discuss something. Im tryin to focus you on the actual topic
I’m a mystic - what he dismisses as “the weeds” is my religious tradition:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
The weeds matter and you need to explore them much more deeply.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Not when you get lost in them.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I’m not lost.
In a new thread I pointed out what usually happens when he and I engage with each other:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
And you misunderstand my point because you are too obsessed with arguing yours to even grasp mine.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Funny enough I do get your point. I think you aren’t even tryin to grasp mine.
Then I made a key decision in the debate. I was just going to openly start calling him a fundamentalist:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You don’t get my point. I do get yours as I’ve argued with fundamentalists like you for years.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Lol ok Dave
I decided at this point I had enough clarity in the discussion to explain what was really driving our disagreements:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
That’s our real difference here. You take a fundamentalist approach to language and religion whereas I take the mystical approach aka “the weeds.”
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
So you believe words can have infinite meaning and communication would still be possible?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Yes. Words do have infinite meaning and communication still happens. It just means that poor communication happens a lot because people disagree on the words’ meanings.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Can you prove that? Can you prove that the word snail can also mean whale.
Then I hit on a key point that he didn’t understand: subjective concepts like language and religion were not “objective” sciences where one could prove meaning:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Sure. Anyone can arbitrarily say that one word has another meaning.
Language isn’t really something like science or math where one can “prove” things.
Only fundamentalists see it that simplistically.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I think maybe you’re missing the point/purpose of language.
OK, with that insult it was time to invoke my credentials and professional experience to refute:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I have a degree in English and have made my living as a writer since 2009. I get paid well for my writing.
I just understand this subject differently than you do because we have different backgrounds in it.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I am shocked you have a degree In English and aren’t able to understand my point then.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I do understand your point. I just disagree with it because I have a deeper experience in the subject of language as a professional writer, editor, and publisher.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
well my dad is a linguistics professor and that’s where I’m getting most of this sooo. Let’s not pull that card Dave. Argue against the points, credentials don’t make your case.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I have argued against the point. And my experience shapes why we disagree here. Understand that I make my living as a professional in this field and you’ll get why I see it more complexly than those who do not.
It was akin to someone raised by a doctor arguing with someone who had been through medical school and was now doing their residency.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I have yet to hear a solid retort to how language retains meaning and the ability to convey ideas with infinite word definitions
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Because the word definitions are infinite but they get constrained into greater specificity and meaning by context, culture, and history. Then communication can happen.
It’s almost as though my point that words can have infinite meaning was scary to him. He again tried to pronounce victory, as though something I said was actually conceding agreement to his overarching argument:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so they’re not infinite then in practice.
Thanks for finally arriving at where I was tryin to guide you
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
There are infinite potential practices. You aren’t guiding me anywhere. I get your points, I just dispute them since I reject your fundamentalist approach to language and religion.
He again brought up my challenging him on his misuse of “whataboutism” as though that contradicted my point that words can *potentially* have infinite meanings:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Language only works the way I describe it my man. Cannot just use Words however you want. The irony here is that you literally said I misused the word whataboutism… by your logic it’s impossible to misuse a word since they have infinite meaning
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
That is not my logic. I am not being a postmodernist and saying anything goes and nothing means anything. I am saying there is greater ambiguity, complexity, and HISTORY than you seem to get.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
you’re the one who said infinite definitions Dave. I never denied definitions can change. But at any one point in time it is paramount that the words have set definitions.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It is paramount for good communication that the people using those words in a specific conversation agree on the definitions.
But objectively & historically words just don’t have set definitions at all. Dictionaries don’t all agree. Hence why there are so many dictionaries.
I must have really been frustrating him at this point with my unwillingness to give in to his oversimplifying:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Again Dave we agree defintioms change and vary slightly but they cannot have infinite definitions and still be useful. Can you acknowledge this?
I again brought up how we weren’t really communicating since our understanding of words was so different:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Still be useful… in a single, specific conversation. Common definitions are necessary for 2 specific people to communicate well at a moment in time. Which is why we miscommunicate so much.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
how is it useful Dave? Language literally relies on shared definitions. If we didn’t agree on definitions we wouldn’t be able to have this conversation.
I point this out often in online debates - that there’s a world of difference between having a “debate” - in which one argues endlessly for their point - and a “conversation” where ideas are actually being exchanged:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
We haven’t been able to have a conversation because we disagree on the definitions. You are more making arguments than trying to have a 1 to 1 conversation.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
you’re literally the one that got us distracted with whataboutism. Dave I get the feeling you just reflexively don’t wanna agree with anything I say.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I don’t mean to give you that feeling. I’m sure there’s plenty we would agree on. I just usually respond to your tweets when I feel you are oversimplifying something that is more complex.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Sure but you have yet to offer a reasonable retort to the key point here. And you even contradicted yourself in this discussion demonstrating my key point. So that’s why I feel like you just don’t wanna acknowledge you may have been wrong.
I returned to my point again about how I was a mystic and he was a fundamentalist, a point he had yet to acknowledge:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I have retorted your key point endlessly. We just disagree about this stuff because you are a fundamentalist and I am a mystic. Our types always disagree like this!
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
but you disproved it with you saying I used the incorrect definition for whataboutism Dave… how do you not see that lol? I’d that didn’t prove that agreed and finite definitions are key to communication… idk what will prove it to you
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
And as I said previously - language and religion are not like science, math, or sports. The “rules” are much more fluid and the “referees” much less powerful.
The obsession with proper following of the rules and strict use of language are trademarks of fundamentalism:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Sure but that doesn’t mean there aren’t rules. Language is a social construct like religion and sports. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t have rules and boundaries.
In a new thread, Dan tried again to refute my point that being a Jew was primarily about choosing to self-identify as such:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
ok, if you believe you’re a squirrel in your own mind… are you a squirrel?
And I called him out for another too simple comparison:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Objectively no. But a squirrel is not analogous to “Jew.” You keep wanting to compare Jew to subjects that are way simpler like sports.
Sports have clear rules and referees on the field to enforce them. Religions don’t.
3:36 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Now he was beginning his “fighting retreat” - indicating he was getting tired of the debate but not yet ready to give it up:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
religions also do have rules as both are social constructs. They’re a lot more similar than you seem to think. Anyway I made my case. If you don’t wanna see it you won’t see it
3:38 PM · Jan 12, 2023
2 Likes
I again brought up the Mystic vs Fundamentalist point to explain our disagreement:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Religions do have rules but no referees with authority to enforce them. Sports are way simpler and the players agree to follow the referee’s decisions. Religion not so simple historically.
I see your case and reject it because as a mystic I oppose all fundamentalist ideologies.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
there are top rabbis and religious leaders who largely play the referee role.
You reject it without addressing the issue it brings up…
Now we were starting to get somewhere finally as he was addressing my point about the lack of authorities to enforce the rules of religion like a sports referee:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
They want to play the referee role but they can’t like a referee in a sports match.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Not sure what you mean
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
A rabbi or a pastor or an imam is more like a teacher/counselor than a referee or rule enforcer.
In a new thread I emphasized that he was more just expressing his opinion and not proving any objective point:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
So you can’t really “prove” your simplistic ideas about how you think language and religion *should* work in your own subjective opinion.
He was continuing his “fighting retreat” again:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I think (with your help) I’ve proven it in this convo. I’ll leave it up for others to decide
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You’ve proven it to yourself, I guess.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
And others, have confirmed
It seemed necessary again to bring up that this was how fundamentalists thought:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You really do think like a fundamentalist.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I have a feeling I wouldn’t be able to convince you water is wet 😂
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Water is not comparable to Jews or whattaboutism.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
missing the point
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Don’t worry about it
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Your point was to insult me.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
No it was to point out that you’re a bit of a contrarian
I’m not really a “contrarian” in the Christopher Hitchens tradition nor in how real contrarians I’ve engaged with behave. And I explained why:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I can be sometimes. But a contrarian is usually just arguing to argue and to get attention or make money.
I am sincere in trying to get you to see language and religion with greater complexity and historical context than you do.
Our thread about “whataboutism” and its relation to the Jewish debate continued:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I said you used the word simplistically without grasping its broader historical context. Which is the same thing you do with Jew.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
You also said I incorrectly used the word Dave. It’s literally right there just scroll up.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You did. You claimed it meant referring to something random. It doesn’t.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Ahh so now you are saying I misused it. Whcih contradicts your “words have infinite meanings” statement. Can’t have it both ways my friend
Dan was perpetually looking for ways in which I supposedly contradicted myself. And I wouldn’t have it.
I decided I had to do more to explain to him how he was being a fundamentalist:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I can and do. You just don’t get it because you are such a fundamentalist who sees the world in simplistic black and white terms.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
hardly Dave hardly but believe what you wish
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Hardly what?
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Hardly see things in black and white. But you’re free to believe whatever you want about me
I decided at this point to start hammering away at the fundamentalist point and see what happened:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You use language in a black and white, fundamentalist way.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Nope. I even said it can change over time in just said it cannot have infinite meanings at any one point in time. Which is obvious
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But “Jew” does have seemingly infinite meanings at this point in time. And other words do too.
Where we are getting confused is I am talking about language broadly/historically and you are saying how language should be used in a specific conversation.
He again repeated his condemnation of postmodernism, that if something doesn’t have a clearly defined meaning then it cannot have any meaning:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
If Jew has infinite meanings then it has no meaning. That is my whole point.
I decided to stick to the point about fundamentalism and expand it to emphasize fundamentalists of other religions:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
And your point is a typical fundamentalist oversimplification showing your lack of historical study.
Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims say much the same things too.
Finally he seemed to pick up on my using “fundamentalist” so much and tried to dispute it:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
you keep saying that but haven’t backed it up with anything of substance. Again you have proven my point about language within this conversation.
Then I just asked him the question outright:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Do you understand what a “fundamentalist” is as it refers to language and religion?
I suppose you’re going to google that word now too and think you know everything you need to know to be an expert… 😜
When he failed to answer as quickly as he had been I decided to pronounce victory, having figured out that he didn’t even understand what the word “fundamentalist” meant:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I have proven the point now. We haven’t been communicating because you don’t understand the definition of “fundamentalist” as I’ve been using it. ✌️😄🤗
His answer was a dead giveaway:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Ok Dave have a good one lol
I’ve gotten this a fair amount lately with fundamentalists of all sorts of ideologies:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Fundamentalists of all types usually give up in their arguments with me when I really hit on the key point they don’t understand or want to avoid.
The fighting retreat continued, signaling to me that I’d hit on the key issue and he didn’t know how to respond:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Whatever you gotta tell yourself my friend
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You don’t seem really able to dispute that you have a fundamentalist approach to language and culture. You keep demanding simple definitions and making simple comparisons and not wanting to see complexity. You compared Jews to soccer. So now you give up the discussion.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I just don’t see a point in continuing to discuss when you can’t acknowledge obvious things. Nope you have a good day tho man
Having now come across the term he wasn’t able to refute I was going to hold onto it:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
What you call “obvious things” I generally call “fundamentalism.” Look it up.
If something is truly “obvious” then it usually doesn’t need to be acknowledged.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
well it’s so obvious you proved my point within the conversation Dave while arguing against me.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I did. But not how you realize it. We can’t communicate because you don’t understand “fundamentalism” as I am using it.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
seems like this conversation entails you telling me I don’t understand things without explaining how it’s relevant to my point
I again tried to explain why we were arguing:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I have been explaining to you endlessly for hours now how it’s relevant to your multiple points on Jews and language.
You have a fundamentalist approach, I have a mystical approach. These two always clash.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
All you say is that it’s complicated and requires historical context without providing the context or explaining why it’s relevant
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I also gave you the historical context about whattaboutism as a historical tool of the Soviet Union in its cultural subversion efforts of America.
Since he claimed again that I’d failed to give him the context I repeated myself and tried to get us back to the discussion of Jews:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I did provide the context. Historically Jews are a religion with multiple forms, various cultures, and several different ethnic groups. Reform, Haredi, Orthodox, conservative, Reconstructionist. The reason there are so many forms is because historically they disagree so much.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Not sure how that contradicts what I’ve been saying. All of those groups have a meaning behind what it means to belong to that group. You can’t just claim heredi and then be a Christian. Then you’re not a heredi Jew.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Even within those groups what the key meaning should be is disputed. Orthodox rabbis don’t all agree. Reform rabbis don’t all agree. Etc. Same deal with Christianity and Islam. No one can agree on what the “fundamental” beliefs and practices are which one must do to be a member.
He again tried to claim that a Jew couldn’t believe in Jesus:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Well belief in Jesus certainly means you aren’t a Jew. Just cause there are points of contention doesn’t mean there aren’t some obvious lines.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It means one isn’t a reform or Orthodox Jew but the “Messianic Jews” who do believe in Jesus are still an existing group. And whether they are “true Jews” or not is again, an endless debate in which no one can play true referee with authority.
Now we were making progress again:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
ya and that’s why we add “messianic” instead of just calling them Jews.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But you have to do that with every group of Jews. Just adding a descriptor in front of Jews doesn’t end the debate at all over whether they count as part of “the tribe” or not. How about Secular Jews? Do they count as Jews in your subjective opinion?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You also aren’t thinking about how Judaism is only one component of how Jews are defined. Culture, history, and ethnicity are also important components. And Jews who don’t practice Judaism but embrace the culture/history/ethnic identity still count as Jews too.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
ok but the history, culture, ethnicity can’t be anything right? Those have to be defined.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I’m not a postmodernist. Yes you can try to define those too but then you get into the same complexities as defining the boundaries of the religion. Jewish cultures exist. But how much must one embrace one to count as a Jew?
Dan was willing to concede my point that some Jews counted according to their genes, and not their beliefs, and tried to refocus the conversation on religious converts:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
If they’re Jews by ancestry then yes they’re Jews. Nothing subjective about that. Being part of the tribe is a genetic thing. I’m talking about converting to the religion.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
By that definition then a Jew genetically who believes in Jesus is still a Jew.
Genetics don’t definite Jews though just as they don’t define any of us.
Our choices define us.
6:45 PM · Jan 12, 2023
1 Like
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Yes tribally they are still a Jew religiously they are not. And thats like saying your choices define if you have Italian ancestry Dave… it’s something you either do or don’t have
I wasn’t going to let the comparison to other ethnic groups slide. Jews are a unique people since their religion, culture, and ethnicity are so intricacy tied together. It was also time to bring antisemitism into the discussion to emphasize the point about this:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
And Italian ethnicity/culture is not analogous to Jews because Italians don’t have a unique religion tied up in their identity nor anywhere near the level of oppression that Jews face globally. There are over a billion antisemites on the planet.
global100.adl.org
You are being redirected...
In a new thread I restated my position now that he had admitted one could ethnically be Jewish while religiously Christian:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But you get my point now about how one can be a Christian Jew. And then how other Jews will argue over whether they count as part of the tribe or not.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
right but that doesn’t mean the categories don’t have meaning. If you’re converting to Judaism (the religion) how does it make sense to reject the Torah and the Jewish God? What makes it Judaism?
I chose to emphasize then how some groups of Jews regard others as having rejected the Torah and the Jewish God, a point he still didn’t get:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
If one is converting to a more liberal version of Judaism like Reconstructionist or Reform then more conservative ones like Haredi or Orthodox often won’t even recognize such people as Jews since these traditions interpret Torah so radically different.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so what makes it Judaism then if it rejects the core tenets of Judaism and the book it was founded on?
I brought up fundamentalism again:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Liberal versions don’t reject them, they just interpret them very differently.
You keep saying “core tenets” and I hear that as “fundamentalism.”
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
This is a hypothetical thought exercise. Can you answer the question please?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I’m not understanding your hypothetical question apparently.
Can you restate it more clearly?
He didn’t and we continued on another thread:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Sort of how many fundamentalist Evangelical Christians don’t regard more liberal Christians like me as real Christians.
Also like how Islamists don’t regard moderate Muslims as real Muslims or respect the Arab monarchies existing in the Middle East.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
But we’re talking about the very core of what the Jewish religion is here not specific customs. We’re talking about the Torah and belief in the God of the Torah
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
The devil is in the details, my friend. How one interprets Torah determines what type of Jew one is from Haredi to Secular. Plenty of Jews don’t see Torah as divine or believe literally in its God.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I’m not talking about interpretation tho. I am saying if someone is converting TO THE RELIGION… shouldn’t they have to believe in the Jewish God and Torah? Otherwise what are the converting to?
To throw him off a bit I decided to agree with him:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Yes. But my point is that many forms of Judaism are not recognized as authentic belief in God and Torah by other Jews.
I knew he would try to then claim overall victory:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so you do believe in gatekepint Judaism then. Glad we could agree
But I disputed again, rejecting the idea of “gatekeeping” who counts as a member of which religion:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I don’t believe in “gatekeeping” with religions at all. I believe in flinging the gates wide open by focusing on faiths’ mystical traditions.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Did you not just agree one must believe in the Torah and god of the Torah to convert to Judaism?
I’m perfectly willing to concede that one converting to Judaism should believe in the Torah and its God, but must? Not quite:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
No. You previously said “should” and now you are saying “must.” Yes, all people should believe in the Torah and its God. Especially those who want to religiously define themselves as Jews. But more secular and liberal approaches to Judaism still have value too.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
So by your logic anyone who feels like a Jew is a Jew? Am I understanding correctly?
And then we’d come full circle again back to what I’d originally said:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Anyone who chooses to self-identify as a Jew counts as a Jew, in my opinion. That decision usually goes way beyond feelings. I already stated my view on this awhile back in the conversation and you rejected it.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
And you don’t see any issues with that?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Of course there are issues with that. I am very well-versed in these internal debates on “who is a Jew?” from working with so many Jews of different traditions. There are issues with whether one wants to define broad or restrictive. I prefer broad because I am a mystic.
Now we were making progress again. He was asking a question to learn something instead of just continuing to endlessly argue his point:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
What is a mystic to you? What do you mean when you say that
But we’ll get to my answer on that shortly. We were still arguing about something else on another thread and I was explaining why I was so resistant to his idea of “gatekeeping”:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
“Gatekeeping” as it relates to Judaism generally means more Orthodox Jews bullying more liberal Jews for not being as strict in their interpretations and practice of the Torah. And I don’t believe in that at all.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
That’s a subjective assessment of what the word means. Gatekeeping in general jsut means limiting access to something. Which you agreed to a couple tweets ago.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
And I don’t think access to the Jewish tradition should be limited at all! Everyone should embrace as much of what Jews teach as they can. Jewish wisdom is unique and infinitely valuable.
Now we were making progress again:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
anyone can embrace the teachings… that doesn’t make them Jews
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It does if they embrace them so much they self-identify as such.
Again he tried to make an oversimplified comparison to other subjects to try and expose me as a postmodernist who believed in nothing:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I’m curious. Do you think if i identity as woman i am a woman? What about if i identity as a dentist?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Gender and professions are not analogous to Jews. Just like soccer isn’t.
Jews are a unique phenomenon which is why they are both so important and so hated.
Then his deeper objection to me and my approach came out:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
You seem to be very resistant to objective truths
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
On the subjects we’re mostly talking about - religion and language - I am. Those are very subjective concepts. They aren’t at all like more “objective” things like math, history, science, and so forth that do have clear objective truths.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
but you do realize allowing someone to just self identify as something makes the category meaningless right? Because there are no standards for inclusion or exclusion.
I was tired of him constantly insisting that without having a clear, agreed upon definition of “Jew” that it made the term “meaningless.” I offered another word instead:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It doesn’t make it “meaningless,” it acknowledges the historical reality that it is *disputed* what one must do or believe in order to be a good Jew or practice Judaism properly.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
we’re not talking about being a good Jew or proper practice. Just the most basic what makes a Jew a Jew (religiously). If a Jew can also be a Christian than what information does the word give you? It doesn’t give you any information beyond a meaningless label.
I again brought up the “historical context” to this gatekeeping discussion to explain why it made me so uncomfortable:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
We are talking about being a Good Jew and proper practice. Within Judaism groups of Jews are always accusing each other of not being real Jews because they are “bad” in their Torah interpretation and poor in their practice of Jewish law.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
No we are not. We are talking about what makes someone Jewish. As In when is it an apt label.
I again restated my original position:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
What makes someone Jewish is their choice to identify as a Jew. That is when it is an apt label.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so anyone with any belief system, any customs, any culture … can be a Jew if they simply identify as it?
It seemed an opportune time to inject more cultural and historical context that I was educated on into the discussion. Click here for a fantastic overview of the Black Hebrew Israelite phenomenon and the diversity within it
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It doesn’t happen very often, you are making a silly hypothetical, but yes.
Black Hebrew Israelites claim to be Jews. They identify as it. And most other Jews don’t embrace them but some do if it is a moderate sect of BHI.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
If it’s a silly hypoehtical how were you able to come up with a real world example so quickly? (BHIs). Do you think they are Jews?
I could already see the trap he was trying to set for me:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Because it happens so rarely, they are just an obvious example with Kanye and Kyrie popularizing their ideas. Some BHI are Jews, others are radical antisemitic hate groups which demonize white Jews.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
but Dave … by your logic… If they identify as Jews they are Jews. So you cannot call them non Jews.
I was already aware of the diversity within the BHI movement and used it to again make my point for complexity:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Some identify as Jews. Others call themselves Israelites, which isn’t the same thing. There is a lot of diversity among the BHI too. Some are moderate and fine, others hateful.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
what if they’re hateful and identify as a Jew.
He wasn’t going to trip me up here at all. With all the time I’ve spent dealing with groups of far-left anti-Israel Jews I was more than prepared:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Well, some Jews are hateful and some Jews are even antisemitic. There is one sect of Jews that even shows up in Iran and marches alongside them against Israel.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
By your standards even those that hate Jews can be Jews if they self identify as such
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Correct. It is rare but it does happen. This isn’t just my opinion - it factually happens.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Surely you’ve heard the term “self-hating Jew,” right? There are Jews who are so hostile to Israel they are frequently labeled antisemitic by Zionists.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
for sure
In another thread Dan again demanded simplicity on a subject filled with nuance and complexity:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Ever heard this quote? “If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Yawn. Judaism and Jewish culture/history can’t be explained simply. That’s why there are so many big books on it! Try Maimonides’ Guide of the Perplexed and dig in.
You are showing your fundamentalist mentality again by demanding simplicity.
And so the fighting retreat began again:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Dave this convo isn’t gonna go anywhere. Your logic is very flawed imo.
And I again challenged him that his “logic” was actually fundamentalism:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I’m just not as fundamentalist as you are and that annoys you.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I just don’t feel you’re being intellectually honest here Dave
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You think I am lying to you about how my mysticism makes me see this differently than you who wants so much “logical” simplicity?
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I think you’re tryin to win an argument not understand my point
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I think that’s what you’re doing with me.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I’m sure you do.
In another thread we got back to the question of my own peculiar religious identity:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
And you are just oblivious to the historical reality that Jews have argued about this among themselves endlessly for 2000 years and are still bitterly divided over this question today. There isn’t an easy answer all can agree on.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
I’m well aware Dave that’s why I stuck to the root of what makes a Jew a Jew. Belief in the Torah and the God of the Torah. Dave are you even Jewish? Didn’t you say you were Christian earlier?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
But a lot of Jews don’t believe in Torah or the God of Israel and they are still counted as Jews.
This was the first time in the whole conversation in which his own religious views had come up and he admitted to not being religious:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Again it’s important to make the distribution between Jews by blood and people who convert to the religion. I am not religious but am a Jew because both my parents are Jews. Just like someone is a Native American cause they have native ancestry.
I took the chance to again emphasize Jewish diversity of culture:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Ahkenazi Jewish parents? Or Sephardi?
Don’t you see? You as a secular Jew and an Orthodox Jewish convert who is black or Latino - both of you count equally as Jews. Antisemites hate you both.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Mixed. And yes both of those are Jews. Black and Latino doesn’t matter. If converting to the religion belief in the Torah and the God of the Torah is what matters
AGAIN I stated my original position that choosing to identify that way had to be the key:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Right, the race doesn’t matter when it comes to being a Jew. Choice to identify as such is what matters.
In another thread I started talking about my own mysticism and why my embrace of it caused me to bristle at his need for simple definitions:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I am a Judeo-Christian mystic. My views are a blending of Jewish, Christian, and other faiths’ mystical traditions.
Hence why I am so resistant to you wanting to demand simple categories and simple definitions.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
so you created your own belief system then? Nothing wrong with that but it’s not Judaism.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I don’t claim to practice Judaism but I do practice Jewish mysticism, and that alone is enough for some to regard me as a Jew even though I don’t identify as such.
Mysticism is its own grouping of traditions, not my own creation.
I was starting to count it as progress anytime Dan would ask me a question. It was a sign he was willing to learn and I wasn’t wasting my time beating my head against a wall:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
who created the grouping?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Mystics across faiths. I am most influenced by the agnostic mysticism of Robert Anton Wilson which also blends faiths.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
So you don’t believe in God?
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
No, I do. I just take an agnostic approach to mysticism. I am skeptical about my practices instead of certain in them.
In another thread Dan disputed my claim that I was just talking about the world factually instead of just spewing opinions:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
It’s for sure not factual Dave 😂 if I identify as a Muslim right now while changing nothing about my beliefs that does not make me one.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Yes it does. These are just labels and anyone can use or misuse them.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
lol and how exactly would one misuse self id if all it takes is stating you’re that thing?
Then we got to a key bigger context of the discussion. Dan was just talking in theory and focused on the labels, I was more concerned about what one did with the labels after they embraced them:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It depends on what one chooses to do with the label *after* they’ve self-applied it. The label itself doesn’t mean much, what matters is the actions which the label inspires someone to do.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
welcome to my point. Self ID makes the label fairly meaningless.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Labels alone are fairly meaningless. Actions based on the labels are what matter.
Again he tried to dismiss my broader point as irrelevant to the narrow conversation he was wanting to have, a tactic he’d employed regularly whenever I tried to show greater complexity than he liked:
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Totally irrelevant point Dave. This convo is about labels.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
This is where we disagree. I keep telling you that culture and history and knowledge matter in understanding how and why labels are applied. You want to ignore the broader context of this stuff and oversimplify it down to a tweet.
Now he was just repeating himself again, dismissing what I was saying as “lost in the weeds.”
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Because if we don’t simplify it we get lost in the weeds. As is evidenced by this conversation.
As the debate was about to come to a close I knew exactly what I was doing provoking him at this point:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
“Lost in the weeds” is just a cliche and a lazy excuse to stay ignorant.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
idk if you realize it but that comes across as an insult
Oh an insult? Why you don’t say. Yeah, at this point I was ready to insult him for his insistence that history and broader context could always just be dismissed as “weeds”:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
It was intended as such and why I put “lazy” in there. Refusing to learn more because you dismiss something as “weeds” is so lazy and not at all noble like you want to make it.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
ok then we’re done here Dave
I couldn’t resist using one of my favorite gifs at this point:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
Oh did I hit a nerve? Can’t handle being accused of intellectual laziness in your dismissing important stuff as “weeds”?
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Nope just not worth any more of my time. I’ve already wasted far too much time having this discussion with you dude
He wanted to claim that I’d insulted him first when really he’d insulted me:
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
You flung the insult first by dismissing what I was saying as “weeds” to be ignored. And you’ve enjoyed this discussion otherwise you wouldn’t have engaged in it.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
No that wasn’t an insult. Just wasn’t pertinent to the question I was tryin to get you to answer. Anyway I really should know better than to engage in these discussions with you, they’re never productive.
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
I took it as an insult. They aren’t productive because you usually don’t want to learn from what I have to say. You are just pre-committed to arguing your own POV.
Tigger’s Dan 🦅 @TiggerTwo4
Ironic Dave very ironic
Dave of the Desert @DaveSwindle
How so? Because you think that is what I am doing?
And that was that. 500 points to you if you made it all the way to the end!
Look for one of the next installments - maybe THE next - in this series to explain why I choose not to identify as a Jew even though according to my own preferred definition I very much could if I wanted!
Leave a comment
Share
Ever since I was a kid in the '60s and saw the movie Zulu, I've felt very British. I always loved English under statement, the being in control in every situation, the stiff upper lip, you know.
If I feel British and do some British things, does that make me British? Can I claim British citizenship? I would make a much better prince, than Harry. Just thinking. —Sir Glenn